MoveOn.ogre's Unintended Message

JudgeBob
Jun 24, 2008 at 10:22 PM
20 comments

The "100 years" controversy dates back to a Jan. 3 town hall meeting in Derry, N.H. In response to a voter's question about how many years U.S. troops might stay in Iraq, McCain said:

"Maybe 100. We've been in South Korea -- we've been in Japan for 60 years. We've been in South Korea for 50 years or so. That would be fine with me, as long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. It's fine with me, and I hope it would be fine with you, if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where al-Qaeda is training, recruiting, and equipping and motivating people every single day."

message to John McCain

So, now you're brought up to speed on the story of the MoveOn.ogre ad usually referred to as the Baby Alex ad. I have the video of the ad and the response from a Marine wife with a baby on her lap both at right of this commentary.

Seems to me the MoveOn message is fundamentally flawed and offers no challenge to John McCain. First, Baby Alex has to be at least 17 to sign up and 18 to enter the armed forces. Second, Mama don't get to say what 18 year old Alex will and won't do. Third, where's Dad? Does he want to encourage Alex to serve and is he equipped and willing to teach Alex about commitment and sacrifice and honor and a gratitude to this nation for the freedom he and his family has to say anything to anybody, including the leader of the nation?

That's the message MoveOn is

Message to MoveOn.org

unintentionally sending to America. Dad's matter. Men matter. The femenization of America is bringing the nation to a lopsided world view. I am not suggesting that all women think military action is wrong or bad. I am suggesting that the feminine traits are more highly regarded than masculine traits by the general public these days. That's why we have T-ball games where scores are adjusted to keep from damaging the little tykes' psyches and trophies are handed out to every team member of every team, win or lose or bench warmer. That's why we don't grade school work anymore. That's why we have bicycle helmets and lawsuits out the wazoo.

When trophies are doled out for participation rather than struggling for the win and everybody is honored whether extraordinary effort, or any effort, was invested in the work required to be a winner, then trophies and gold stars and accolades mean nothing. When we have entirely new concepts like kindergarchy where kids rule the house rather than parents, and more and more rules and laws applied to protect us from ourselves, and making businesses and property owners responsible for patrons' and visitors' irresponsible behavior through litigation nightmares, and the government is supposed to make sure every citizen is employed, insured, fed, housed, and clothed, we know that caring and social concern has lopsided influence over responsible, sacrificial commitment, self reliance, and respect for authority.

Nothing is wrong with compassion and social concern. Neither is anything wrong with the masculine traits of aggression, authority, and a call to face the consequences of your choices.

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[this is good]

American mothers want their babies to grow up and live full lives. Muslim mothers want their babies to become Shaheed. Big difference; Move On etal. can't recognize it.

If we don't confront and defeat evil, it will defeat us. Lets just nuke Islam, instead of feeding our boys to the crocodile.

I'm not in favor of feeding our boys to the threat either, but are we prepared to take on 1.3 billion Muslims by wholesale slaughter of Islam? Our numbers are only around 300 million. That's four to one. Can we build and deliver that many bombs fast enough and if we do, what will remain of Western ideology?

I missed hitting the reply button again.

Survival is at stake. certain concepts are absolutely vital:
Individualism
Liberty
Justice
Equality
Islam is inimical to each and every one of those concepts. Zero sum game: us or them. I say let us win, let them go to Hell. We damn near lost World War Two. If Hitler had not blundered, we'd be his slaves.

Do you know what the conquering Muslims did to the Christians of Constantinople? Do you give a damn? Do you want to experience that here?

If you desire continued life & liberty, if you want your grandchildren to live free and prosperous then resolve to pursue Victory, press on regardless. If Islam exists, we are losing; have lost.

The American public will not support prolonged combat. They will not tolerate a constant flow of coffins returning from far away sand traps. Our forces can not identify combatants to separate them from the human shields.

Just as in Vietnam, we did not send enough troops to seize and hold territory. Either you seize and hold everything within the radius of the enemy range of fire or you suffer casualties from rockets, mortars and rpgs. Either you take out the Iranian factories that make EFPs or you suffer constant casualties from roadside bombs.

There is absolutely no possibility of winning in Afghanistan or Iraq under the present constraints, with current tactics and strategies, no matter how long we persevere. If we don't completely eliminate Islam, we lose.

[this is good]

I have always bristled when the thought is expressed that a woman cannot be a leader (i.e. president) because they would not send anyone into war. Never could understand that, maybe it's just a TEXAN thing. Sure, no one "likes" sending our best and brightest into battle, but has anyone ever noticed through out history that when a mother/grandmother/sister/aunt sends her men into battle, it's always with the attitude of "take care of yourself, but GET THE JOB DONE". Don't make a mother/grandmother/sister/aunt angry. Sure, women may give more chances than a man (how's that for a stereotype), but once it's a go, there is no turning back. Okay, that ought to be enough to spur the conversation. NO, I AM NOT A HILARY SUPPORTER OR EVEN SYMPATHIZER.

And I totally disagree with Ben, Astan and IQ both have the possibility of becoming success stories. Define "winning".

The crusades were not pretty from either view point. Be careful what examples you choose, you may wind up having the conversation turn from the points you are trying to make.

I totally agree that we have to finish this OVERTHERE, and not just stop and pull home or we will be in the battle here at home.

Okay, I'm ready for the onslaught.

Individualism
Liberty
Justice
Equality
Islam is inimical to each and every one of those concepts

Agreed.

conquering Muslims did to the Christians of Constantinople?

I haven't actually looked into this at any depth. Do you have some good links and references to dig in? I am definitely interested in learning about it.

if you want your grandchildren to live free and prosperous then resolve to pursue Victory

My idea of pursuing victory means return force with overwhelming force. Not tit for tat, but WHOMP for tat. Whomp means when they target innocent citizens with the most, the best tactical ability they possess, then return the favor with our most, and our tactical best instead of surgical strikes against just the perps, carpet bomb until the citizen is so pissed off at their extremist political and religious leaders for stirring us up against them that they find rules of engagement every bit as valuable as we do. When we start discovering Iranians and other nationalities in significant numbers, have a little discussion with the leaders of that country and if they don't volunteer to help put a stop to insurgency, surprise them with an equally impressive bombing campaign. I don't believe we could eradicate Islam any more than the Nazis could eradicate Judaism and I think we would be just as guilty as the Nazis if we tried. I do, however, think that it is a necessary part of war to affect the fighters' families and friends and neighbors as bad or worse as they affect ours. This is hitting the source of their support structure. As they are operating a propaganda war on our support structure, we should be convincing their support that their desire for a war with us is a really bad idea, bad enough in fact that they will never, ever try it again.

The American public will not support prolonged combat.

If the Bush administration had given the right message to Americans to volunteer in whatever area they can to help the war effort. If Americans are invested in the war, they will support it until the job is done. Instead he told us to go on living our lives as if nothing had changed. Something has changed. We have committed troops to meet the Islamic threat. His problem is that he, nor anybody else in authority in America had a clue what a threat Islam is until entering the conflict in answer to the 9/11/1 attack on us. He has backed away from the war of words with our malicious media who are still playing political games using the war as a political football. He should have stayed in that fight until the egg on the media's faces made them reorganize and restructure their industry.

Either you take out the Iranian factories that make EFPs or you suffer constant casualties from roadside bombs.

I think I dealt with this one earlier in this set of comments.

If we don't completely eliminate Islam, we lose.

We are winning, but it is not a win that will maintain a positive circumstance for American interests. So, to some degree, I agree with you. I refer you back to earlier in this comment set that we should overwhelmingly convince Islam everywhere that it is an enormously bad idea to attack American interests anywhere, unjustly. In the current constraints, only those who are suffering under the horrible treatment of the Islamists are convinced America is not their enemy and is in fact their ally. That will change within one generation.

JudgeBob replied to Haole_Wahine’s comment:
Jun 25, 2008
Reply

I have always bristled when the thought is expressed that a woman cannot be a leader (i.e. president) because they would not send anyone into war.

One of my greatest heroes is Margaret Thatcher. The single speech that one me was when she told the House of Commons "they could turn if they wanted, but the 'Lady' is not turning."

I was speaking in general terms and (just to clarify) in general the people of America more highly value feminine traits than masculine traits. If I missed someone's comment about women in leadership, please steer me to where and who.

I totally agree that we have to finish this OVERTHERE

Finishing, I think is where the topic has morphed. What does it mean to finish? I think its finished when we can reasonably conclude, we are no longer in danger from a radical religious ideology and it will not be returning to bite us in the south end. Ben at least, believes we can expect it to come back as long as 2 Muslims remain alive and committed to Islamism.

I did not keep a record of what I read about Constantinople & related conquests. There is plenty on the web, which Google will find for you. Lepanto is another important battle to read about.

Islam can not be cowed nor deterred. It is like Wylie Coyote, it will always regroup, rearm, and try a new tactic. So long as they believe in Allah's pomises, nothing short of death will stop them.

Eliminating the aggressor is not morally equivalent to the Shoah. The Jews were innocent victims. Muslins are not innocent. They have and act upon an assumed demonic mandate to conquer and subjugate the entire world. Like vampirism, Islam expands by recruiting its victims.

Islam can not be cowed nor deterred.

I disagree. If Muhammad took great hope in the victory over a 3to1 (in favor of the pagans) battle, they can be abashed at a 4to1 (in their favor) battle and lose.

Eliminating the aggressor is not morally equivalent to the Shoah.

Regardless, the message Germany was getting about the Jews was they were the cause of all Germany's evils and indeed the world's. I am perfectly willing to perpetrate the same atrocities on our enemies as they are on us, albeit to our full ability in order to convince them on the value of rules of engagement. But restraining our ability while the enemy operates without restraint is foolish beyond belief. This is where the liberals light my fires. They equate us with them and prefer to condemn us rather than them. There is no equation and we are not deserving of condemnation even if we did prosecute the war as I've suggested. Eliminating the aggressor is fine, but you've suggested the entire population is the aggressor. I am not prepared to enter into Islamocide as Nazis attempted to genocide the Jews.

Winning in Afghanistan/Iraq is defined as the creation and maintenance of a stable democracy which does not participate in state sponsorship of terrorism.

It is impossible because the population of both countries is Islamic. Islam and democracy are 100% incompatible. Democracy involves equality, liberty & legislation by consensus. Islam involves inequality, slavery & legislation by Allah and the Caliph. Islam imposes a duty to attack Kuffar at least once in every year until the entire world is conquered.

If a Muslim is a believer, then he must be an aggressor. He is under a demonic obligation to participate in or support Jihad with the sword, pen, tongue, wealth or some combination thereof. He who fails to perform that obligation goes to Hell.

See 8:65-66. Allah had to dilute his promise. In '48. '56, '67 & '73 the Muslims had great numerical and mechanical superiority and still lost. Undeterred, they switched tactics to asymmetrical warfare. They continue hurling unguided missiles and sending sappers. Like Wylie Coyote, they will not quit until they are dead.

We agree on ROE, without reservation. But I maintain that like Polio & Smallpox, Islam must be completely eradicated. All of them are too contagious! They kill and cripple without remorse.

World conquest is an intrinsic part of Islam. It can not be removed because Islam is perfected; Allah's word is final and can not be changed. Neither can it be reinterpreted. Allah's commands to conquest, genocide * terrorism are contained in clear ayat whose meaning is obvious on the face of the text.

If you have any doubts, refer to 3:7 and Ibn Kathir's Tafsir of that verse. You can search for it at www.qtafsir.com. It is also documented in several of my blog posts.

A Muslim's relationship with Allah is that of a slave to his master. Allah purchased his slaves for use as cannon fodder, who kill and are killed. See 9:111.

A Muslim's salvation is purchased by participation in Jihad. Refer to 61:10...13. Refusing to participate in Jihad is the highway to Hell, the code word is "a painful punishment".

"re we prepared to take on 1.3 billion Muslims by wholesale slaughter of Islam"
what

That is what Ben is proposing.

World conquest is an intrinsic part of Islam. It can not be removed because Islam is perfected; Allah's word is final and can not be changed. Neither can it be reinterpreted. Allah's commands to conquest, genocide * terrorism are contained in clear ayat whose meaning is obvious on the face of the text.

Chumblor is convinced their faith is malleable. I know that to be false. I do believe, however that with an undeniable evidence that their aggression will result in their own destruction via overwhelming military response will force them to redefine Islam. Surgical strikes will not get it done. The consequence of ignoring rules of engagement must reach down into the source of their numbers and past the source of their bias'. When their population is depleted enough, they will change their political movement into a semi-benign religion and eliminate the dual nature of Islam.

Have you read what the Bible says about end times? Have you heard somebody present possible timelines for these prophecies? Might be an interesting read for you. I'll see what I can do about locating a link to a credible timeline presentation.

Its impossible, Bob. You overlook one of Islam's defining characteristics: triumphalism. When they are defeated, it's because they were sinful, not practicing Islam as ordered by Allah & Moe. All they gotta do is repent & quit sinning; Allah will forgive them and give them victory. Refer to the Triumphalism chapter in EgregiousAyat.chm.

You must defeat them so overwhelmingly that they wise up to the fact that Allah is an impotent idol & Moe's preaching was a fraud.

'No man knoweth the day or the hour.' I am not convinced that the Revelation of St. John can be taken literally. Neither am I convinced that the prophecy applies to the current conflict.

You must defeat them so overwhelmingly that they wise up to the fact that Allah is an impotent idol & Moe's preaching was a fraud.

Then that would be how far we take the conflict. We only go so far as to make them become a non-threat. But we go by the evidence. If they should reform Islam, great, fine. If they have to reject Islam outright, that's fine too, but we keep after them in a massive military movement until they surrender without reservation. Like the Nazis, like the Japanese, they can be reformed with enough convincing. The answer to how much is enough is up to them.

Neither am I convinced that the prophecy applies to the current conflict.

Wise to be cautious in applying scripture to every entity you are in conflict with. I am convinced by the detailed description of the parties involved and the technology required to make them possible. The players are moving into position for the final conflict. This 'war' is not it. But the players are the same plus a few and it will likely come from our half measures in this conflict.

MoveOn.ogre's Unintended Message

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